1 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:35,380 [Music] 2 00:00:40,370 --> 00:00:37,460 welcome to the show this is Martin 3 00:00:43,670 --> 00:00:40,380 Willis your host and this is a rerun 4 00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:43,680 today now I got to admit that I've 5 00:00:48,530 --> 00:00:45,720 always been able to do a show no matter 6 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:48,540 what whether I was travelling overseas 7 00:00:54,740 --> 00:00:51,450 or in other parts of the country but 8 00:00:56,930 --> 00:00:54,750 this week on the 29th it's just 9 00:00:59,390 --> 00:00:56,940 impossible I just couldn't figure out a 10 00:01:01,670 --> 00:00:59,400 way to do it so this is a rerun this is 11 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:01,680 ralph Blumenthal after he wrote the 12 00:01:07,430 --> 00:01:05,250 Vanity Fair article back in 2013 now we 13 00:01:12,710 --> 00:01:07,440 just did add a calculator he was on my 14 00:01:14,060 --> 00:01:12,720 show 2249 days ago so I hope a lot of 15 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:14,070 you this will be the first time well 16 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:17,310 actually I'm glad if you listen to the 17 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:20,970 show when you did if you're back so you 18 00:01:23,990 --> 00:01:22,530 can't remember everything you said after 19 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:24,000 all this time I don't think but anyway 20 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:26,670 it's an interesting interview and I hope 21 00:01:31,670 --> 00:01:29,340 you enjoy it I apologize for not having 22 00:01:34,789 --> 00:01:31,680 a fresh show for everyone this week but 23 00:01:37,190 --> 00:01:34,799 we'll be back next week with Rizwan Burk 24 00:01:39,350 --> 00:01:37,200 on technology and entrepreneurship 25 00:01:41,179 --> 00:01:39,360 should be an interesting show thanks so 26 00:01:45,810 --> 00:01:41,189 much for listening and we'll see you 27 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:11,210 [Music] 28 00:02:15,980 --> 00:02:15,330 I have Ralph of Blumenthal on skype how 29 00:02:18,710 --> 00:02:15,990 are you Ralph 30 00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:18,720 I'm fine body thank you thanks so much 31 00:02:22,310 --> 00:02:20,400 for agreeing to be on the show I 32 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:22,320 understand this is the first show you 33 00:02:28,070 --> 00:02:24,930 are on about your recent article in 34 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:28,080 Vanity Fair it is that's great I got the 35 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:32,130 scoop well you're a lucky man and so am 36 00:02:40,570 --> 00:02:37,250 i by you so the article name is 37 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:40,580 alienation have humans been abducted by 38 00:02:45,770 --> 00:02:41,700 extraterrestrials 39 00:02:48,350 --> 00:02:45,780 and mostly about John Mack I have to ask 40 00:02:50,870 --> 00:02:48,360 a number of questions first one comes to 41 00:02:53,810 --> 00:02:50,880 mind you have had a prestigious career 42 00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:53,820 have you had any ridicule so far for 43 00:02:59,750 --> 00:02:57,660 this article well a few emails came in 44 00:03:02,450 --> 00:02:59,760 I'm used to that but actually I was 45 00:03:06,020 --> 00:03:02,460 surprised by the positive reaction I 46 00:03:08,330 --> 00:03:06,030 think everyone was so relieved to find a 47 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:08,340 so-called mainstream journalist treating 48 00:03:13,370 --> 00:03:11,130 the subject seriously that I was quite 49 00:03:16,070 --> 00:03:13,380 flattered by the the outpouring of 50 00:03:18,350 --> 00:03:16,080 positive reaction oh that's great I was 51 00:03:19,729 --> 00:03:18,360 hoping it would encourage you you know 52 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:19,739 stay at what you're doing but at least 53 00:03:24,620 --> 00:03:21,750 do a little more exploring I think you 54 00:03:27,110 --> 00:03:24,630 did a it's a wonderful article and this 55 00:03:30,380 --> 00:03:27,120 isn't Vanity Fair so one of the you know 56 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:30,390 most major magazines in the country it's 57 00:03:33,949 --> 00:03:32,730 pretty exciting to see this article well 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:33,959 thank you yes it's on the website 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:36,930 actually they couldn't get it into the 60 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:39,410 magazine fast enough for the upcoming 61 00:03:45,140 --> 00:03:43,110 summer gathering in Newport of you know 62 00:03:47,660 --> 00:03:45,150 of the experiences the abductees who 63 00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:47,670 meet who meet there every year so rather 64 00:03:51,380 --> 00:03:49,800 than try to update it with another 65 00:03:53,930 --> 00:03:51,390 gathering because I attended the one 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:53,940 last July they decided to get it right 67 00:04:02,050 --> 00:03:56,130 up on the site but it's a very active 68 00:04:05,780 --> 00:04:02,060 site it had quite a while ago 25,000 69 00:04:08,330 --> 00:04:05,790 individual pageviews and 2,000 shares so 70 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:08,340 it really seemed to have hit a nerve yes 71 00:04:12,979 --> 00:04:10,769 I bet so you've heard mostly from the 72 00:04:16,759 --> 00:04:12,989 UFO community have you heard from other 73 00:04:18,979 --> 00:04:16,769 colleagues no I really must say I've 74 00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:18,989 heard well a lot of my friends did see 75 00:04:23,930 --> 00:04:21,900 it and we're a little surprised that I'd 76 00:04:24,490 --> 00:04:23,940 be writing about this we can talk about 77 00:04:28,330 --> 00:04:24,500 that 78 00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:28,340 yes but also there was quite a reaction 79 00:04:33,670 --> 00:04:31,340 in the UFO community as you know as well 80 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:33,680 as anyone it's a very tight-knit group 81 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:36,260 it's very its disparate but people keep 82 00:04:41,350 --> 00:04:37,670 in touch with each other and whenever 83 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:41,360 there's a development pro or con there's 84 00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:43,900 a lot of sharing back and forth so 85 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:46,160 everybody tries to keep on top of things 86 00:04:50,740 --> 00:04:48,320 and when this article came out it was 87 00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:50,750 immediately sent back and forth I could 88 00:04:56,230 --> 00:04:52,400 almost see it you know flying through 89 00:04:58,540 --> 00:04:56,240 the the cosmos and I was getting 90 00:05:01,960 --> 00:04:58,550 responses from all over the place yes I 91 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:01,970 I write away a a past guest actually 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:02,930 just last week 93 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:05,450 Leslie Kane can connect him with me 94 00:05:09,580 --> 00:05:06,590 right away and said you would have to 95 00:05:11,710 --> 00:05:09,590 get a hold of this guy right away and so 96 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:11,720 I was really excited that you responded 97 00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:13,730 so quickly well thank you Leslie's one 98 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:16,400 of my favorite people you know she is so 99 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:19,820 clear-eyed and sober about the whole UFO 100 00:05:25,330 --> 00:05:22,970 thing she's brought so much important 101 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:25,340 investigative attention to the subject 102 00:05:31,990 --> 00:05:30,290 and high high credibility so she really 103 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:32,000 is one of my favorite people we did an 104 00:05:38,620 --> 00:05:34,220 article together for the Huffington Post 105 00:05:42,010 --> 00:05:38,630 on these mr. Chilean episode a very 106 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:42,020 strange flyover that went so fast it was 107 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:44,870 only caught on film but she is somebody 108 00:05:50,110 --> 00:05:47,570 I highly respect well that's great 109 00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:50,120 have you had an interest in the subject 110 00:05:58,390 --> 00:05:54,800 for quite a while well as I said in some 111 00:06:01,420 --> 00:05:58,400 of my proposals I've talked with a 112 00:06:03,150 --> 00:06:01,430 number of publishers now as a kid I was 113 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:03,160 very interested in science fiction 114 00:06:08,469 --> 00:06:06,260 growing up in the 50s it was really the 115 00:06:13,390 --> 00:06:08,479 big thing I mean UFOs were suddenly on 116 00:06:17,770 --> 00:06:13,400 the agenda and I gobbled up everything 117 00:06:20,050 --> 00:06:17,780 by Ray Bradbury and Isaac Asimov so as a 118 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:20,060 kid I was certainly interested in it but 119 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:23,510 my interest came later when I picked up 120 00:06:29,860 --> 00:06:26,060 a copy of John Mack's passport to the 121 00:06:33,790 --> 00:06:29,870 cosmos and I was it was about two 122 00:06:35,050 --> 00:06:33,800 thousand four or five and I said gee 123 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:35,060 this is a guy I'd like to interview 124 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:37,130 someday I was already an established 125 00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:38,210 correspondent 126 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:41,180 you know times and the next thing I 127 00:06:45,939 --> 00:06:43,880 heard he'd been killed and in London hmm 128 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:45,949 so that's really where my interest 129 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:49,130 started I see yeah there's there's a 130 00:06:53,140 --> 00:06:50,990 little bit of controversy about his 131 00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:53,150 death you know I mean it was kind of an 132 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:54,889 unusual circumstance it's probably just 133 00:06:58,300 --> 00:06:55,610 an accident 134 00:07:00,339 --> 00:06:58,310 but still a little unusual well I have 135 00:07:02,469 --> 00:07:00,349 satisfied myself that it was an accident 136 00:07:04,719 --> 00:07:02,479 I know I mean there are a lot of 137 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:04,729 conspiracists out there but it is 138 00:07:09,909 --> 00:07:07,610 important to stick to the facts and well 139 00:07:11,469 --> 00:07:09,919 you can never prove a negative I must 140 00:07:13,529 --> 00:07:11,479 say I've talked to the family I've 141 00:07:16,180 --> 00:07:13,539 looked over the police reports and 142 00:07:18,909 --> 00:07:16,190 there's nobody serious out there anymore 143 00:07:22,180 --> 00:07:18,919 who thinks it was any kind or anything 144 00:07:25,390 --> 00:07:22,190 else than a tragic accident the driver 145 00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:25,400 was drunk he admitted that and and John 146 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:27,860 was very tired he was coming back from a 147 00:07:33,339 --> 00:07:30,530 talk in London and he stepped out of a 148 00:07:35,020 --> 00:07:33,349 subway station underground station was 149 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:35,030 not used to the traffic patterns looked 150 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:37,880 the wrong way and it was hit and died 151 00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:41,860 almost instantly so I think while the 152 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:44,150 circumstances was so strange and unusual 153 00:07:49,529 --> 00:07:47,780 given his his notoriety at that point 154 00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:49,539 particularly his fight with Harvard 155 00:07:55,719 --> 00:07:52,070 there was immediately speculation that 156 00:07:59,320 --> 00:07:55,729 it was you know a hit or assassination 157 00:08:00,430 --> 00:07:59,330 but I'm absolutely convinced and so is 158 00:08:02,890 --> 00:08:00,440 everyone else who's looked at the 159 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:02,900 subject seriously that it was just an 160 00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:05,090 accident you know I've heard of a lot of 161 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:07,849 people getting in accidents in England 162 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:09,860 in particular you know looking the wrong 163 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:11,960 way you know just regular car accidents 164 00:08:15,219 --> 00:08:13,490 and things because you're so used to you 165 00:08:18,969 --> 00:08:15,229 know the right-handed traffic he was 166 00:08:21,249 --> 00:08:18,979 very tired he had gone to talk about the 167 00:08:24,070 --> 00:08:21,259 great fascination of his life which was 168 00:08:25,540 --> 00:08:24,080 TE Lawrence of Lawrence of Arabia he'd 169 00:08:27,310 --> 00:08:25,550 written a book that won the Pulitzer 170 00:08:29,439 --> 00:08:27,320 Prize in 1977 171 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:29,449 so he'd gone to give a talk on Lawrence 172 00:08:34,540 --> 00:08:32,630 he was up late it was very emotional for 173 00:08:35,649 --> 00:08:34,550 him it was sort of the and a lot of 174 00:08:38,139 --> 00:08:35,659 strange things and it was the 175 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:38,149 anniversary just about to the day of his 176 00:08:44,710 --> 00:08:41,450 father's death in a vehicle accident his 177 00:08:46,689 --> 00:08:44,720 father was killed in Vermont in a car 178 00:08:50,410 --> 00:08:46,699 accident I mean home from their summer 179 00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:50,420 home and there's also a lot of 180 00:08:56,380 --> 00:08:51,860 interesting things after he 181 00:08:59,230 --> 00:08:56,390 he was hit and killed people who had 182 00:09:01,569 --> 00:08:59,240 visitations from him uh say they did so 183 00:09:04,210 --> 00:09:01,579 he was getting very interested in 184 00:09:06,910 --> 00:09:04,220 survival life after death and this 185 00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:06,920 almost seemed tailor-made for his 186 00:09:12,730 --> 00:09:10,630 research and he himself according to 187 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:12,740 associates appeared to them with 188 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:16,850 messages after he died so in that sense 189 00:09:21,610 --> 00:09:18,860 it was kind of an extension of his 190 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:21,620 life's work Wow let's talk about the 191 00:09:25,389 --> 00:09:23,750 Rhode Island event it was that the first 192 00:09:29,410 --> 00:09:25,399 time they in the only time you've ever 193 00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:29,420 gone it is yeah I had talked to let's 194 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:31,880 see this is how it how I got on to it as 195 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:36,110 I started interviewing max associates 196 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:38,450 they were telling me that he showed up 197 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:43,220 he really at a convention every year in 198 00:09:48,579 --> 00:09:44,950 Newport Rhode Island 199 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:48,589 hosted by this woman who was a fairly 200 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:52,300 prominent Newport resident whose 201 00:09:58,900 --> 00:09:55,910 grandfather had had a mansion there part 202 00:10:00,130 --> 00:09:58,910 of old Newport actually and so I was 203 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:00,140 kind of interested in that but I never 204 00:10:05,170 --> 00:10:03,290 thought I'm going until last summer I 205 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:05,180 was in New Hampshire and I was not far 206 00:10:11,110 --> 00:10:09,170 away and I was talking to the woman who 207 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:11,120 who hosts these gatherings her name is 208 00:10:16,540 --> 00:10:14,690 Anne cool yay she has a B&B in this 209 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:16,550 beautiful mansion on the Newport 210 00:10:21,069 --> 00:10:18,740 waterfront and she said I should come 211 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:21,079 and attend and it seemed an invitation 212 00:10:26,259 --> 00:10:23,690 too good to pass up because a lot of 213 00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:26,269 these experiences as you know Marty are 214 00:10:32,769 --> 00:10:30,560 very a publicity averse they're not 215 00:10:35,230 --> 00:10:32,779 looking for attention contrary to what 216 00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:35,240 you know outside is often believed that 217 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:39,649 these are either hoaxsters or publicity 218 00:10:44,590 --> 00:10:42,110 seekers fabricators looking for 219 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:44,600 attention it's quite the opposite 220 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:46,910 they're very troubled people based on 221 00:10:50,740 --> 00:10:48,290 what has happened to them they weren't 222 00:10:53,290 --> 00:10:50,750 troubled before but to her troubled as a 223 00:10:55,210 --> 00:10:53,300 result of what they went through so they 224 00:10:58,689 --> 00:10:55,220 were not looking particularly for 225 00:11:00,130 --> 00:10:58,699 attention but she invited me to to come 226 00:11:02,139 --> 00:11:00,140 and meet with them and I had met many of 227 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:02,149 them already I thought it was a 228 00:11:05,290 --> 00:11:03,770 wonderful opportunity which it turned 229 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:05,300 out to be it anchored the 230 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:07,370 piece in Vanity Fair because it gave it 231 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:09,649 a focus and so was it was a good device 232 00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:11,810 for telling the story but it was also 233 00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:15,580 very important to me to meet not only 234 00:11:23,259 --> 00:11:19,190 experiencers but scientists who were 235 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:23,269 there Rep scientists astrophysicists who 236 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:26,450 showed up the director of a hospital in 237 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:29,240 Boston who had all kinds of anomalous 238 00:11:35,079 --> 00:11:32,570 psychic experiences so that that's the 239 00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:35,089 story of Newport mm-hmm you speak in 240 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:38,300 your article about when Mac was on Oprah 241 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:40,850 with some experiences did you have you 242 00:11:47,530 --> 00:11:44,510 ever seen tape of that I have very 243 00:11:50,350 --> 00:11:47,540 interesting because first of all it was 244 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:50,360 fairly early and Oprah's a television 245 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:54,980 career and she you could see already 246 00:11:59,470 --> 00:11:57,290 what a good interviewer she was she was 247 00:12:03,130 --> 00:11:59,480 a bit skeptical but she was very 248 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:03,140 accepting of these very strange stories 249 00:12:09,490 --> 00:12:06,050 so not only was there Mac talking about 250 00:12:11,949 --> 00:12:09,500 the phenomenon but he had a group of 251 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:11,959 people young people who told very 252 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:14,510 straightforwardly of their extraordinary 253 00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:18,410 experiences taken aboard a craft and 254 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:21,860 meeting and these beings and losing you 255 00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:24,490 know missing time the whole syndrome so 256 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:28,399 the fact that they were talking about it 257 00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:32,300 so casually and so lucidly and that 258 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:35,600 there were no visible signs of insanity 259 00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:39,410 I mean it was all very hard and Oprah 260 00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:42,079 was was really impressed yeah I would 261 00:12:45,250 --> 00:12:43,670 like to see that tape not be you know I 262 00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:45,260 was wondering if there was any type of 263 00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:47,540 ridicule or something during that tape 264 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:50,750 or how the audience reacted basically 265 00:12:59,139 --> 00:12:54,560 the audience was it was pretty accepting 266 00:13:01,780 --> 00:12:59,149 and I think quite fascinated Oprah would 267 00:13:05,949 --> 00:13:01,790 indicate her skepticism by a raised 268 00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:05,959 eyebrow or a quizzical look and her 269 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:08,240 intro actually is interesting she said 270 00:13:16,510 --> 00:13:12,220 you know we have here you know john mack 271 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:16,520 he he believes that people have been 272 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:18,710 abducted by aliens he 273 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:20,450 believes that they have had children 274 00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:25,430 with aliens so she was you know you 275 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:28,310 could see her skepticism there but the 276 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:30,710 audience was quite supportive especially 277 00:13:35,199 --> 00:13:32,210 once they had a chance to hear these 278 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:35,209 people you know one of my the things 279 00:13:39,970 --> 00:13:38,480 I've seen a documentary on that I 280 00:13:41,769 --> 00:13:39,980 thought was pretty fascinating is when 281 00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:41,779 he went to Africa when he was 282 00:13:45,010 --> 00:13:43,160 interviewing those children you 283 00:13:46,750 --> 00:13:45,020 mentioned that briefly here you know 284 00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:46,760 wasn't really abductions but what an 285 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:49,790 amazing story that is it is one of the 286 00:13:57,730 --> 00:13:55,010 most I mean the whole Canon of alien 287 00:14:01,870 --> 00:13:57,740 abduction as you know revolves around 288 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:01,880 certain very powerful stories one is a 289 00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:05,600 story of Betty and Barney Hill and one 290 00:14:11,620 --> 00:14:08,180 is the Lyndon Napolitano so-called 291 00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:11,630 Brooklyn Bridge abduction the allagash 292 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:13,550 incident so there are a number of things 293 00:14:19,690 --> 00:14:17,450 that you know were particularly that 294 00:14:22,690 --> 00:14:19,700 loom large in the history of the 295 00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:22,700 abduction phenomenon and and one of them 296 00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:25,430 certainly is the incident and rule in in 297 00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:28,940 Zimbabwe and as I serve tell it in the 298 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:30,920 Vanity Fair story and tell it and I hope 299 00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:33,950 to tell in greater length in a book Mac 300 00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:37,310 at the time was being persecuted I think 301 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:41,600 is the only way to describe what Harvard 302 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:43,510 was putting him through they subjected 303 00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:47,630 Inquisition for his his willingness to 304 00:14:54,670 --> 00:14:51,680 entertain the reality of alien abduction 305 00:14:57,190 --> 00:14:54,680 and while he was being subject to all 306 00:14:59,920 --> 00:14:57,200 these hearings at Harvard he got a call 307 00:15:04,060 --> 00:14:59,930 on his office that initially from a BBC 308 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:04,070 correspondent in outside Harare Zimbabwe 309 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:07,490 that a children's school had had some 310 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:10,310 kind of an episode of a visitation of a 311 00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:13,670 of a UFO and the children saw beings 312 00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:15,440 which they reported to the school 313 00:15:21,699 --> 00:15:18,140 authorities and it had become quite a 314 00:15:23,319 --> 00:15:21,709 story in in Zimbabwe and Mac despite all 315 00:15:25,060 --> 00:15:23,329 the troubles he was going through at 316 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:25,070 Harbor dropped everything and with his 317 00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:28,670 research partner flew to Zimbabwe to 318 00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:31,209 talk to these kids themselves and 319 00:15:38,309 --> 00:15:33,040 Mack and his associate interviewed 320 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:38,319 dozens of these kids and they all had 321 00:15:42,689 --> 00:15:41,050 the same story that they saw this craft 322 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:42,699 come down it was either hovering or 323 00:15:48,710 --> 00:15:45,670 landed and they saw two two or three 324 00:15:51,299 --> 00:15:48,720 beings as small dark figures in 325 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:51,309 form-fitting outfits and they were 326 00:15:55,739 --> 00:15:53,290 communicating telepathically with the 327 00:15:58,019 --> 00:15:55,749 children and the children were very 328 00:15:59,910 --> 00:15:58,029 troubled by it and they all had similar 329 00:16:01,980 --> 00:15:59,920 story which was interesting it was hard 330 00:16:03,809 --> 00:16:01,990 to imagine that these kids could make 331 00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:03,819 all this up and keep their stories 332 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:06,639 consistent right and that that's really 333 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:08,529 the basis of that story which is very 334 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:09,550 very powerful 335 00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,220 yes getting back to your career now you 336 00:16:17,999 --> 00:16:15,040 you actually were involved in writing in 337 00:16:19,889 --> 00:16:18,009 Vietnam yeah I was a New York Times 338 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:19,899 correspondent Vietnam was early in my 339 00:16:26,579 --> 00:16:23,920 career and I had been a correspondent 340 00:16:28,859 --> 00:16:26,589 and in West Germany at the time and then 341 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:28,869 they sent me to Vietnam it was pretty 342 00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:32,649 much the high point of the war 69 a year 343 00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:35,199 after 10th I was fascinating I was in 344 00:16:40,199 --> 00:16:37,240 Vietnam covered a lot of the war and 345 00:16:42,419 --> 00:16:40,209 then when the war shifted or spread to 346 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:42,429 Cambodia when Prince Ian it was 347 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:46,809 overthrown and Cambodia sort of joined 348 00:16:50,699 --> 00:16:48,850 the war on the American side which was a 349 00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:50,709 kind of a disastrous decision for them 350 00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,959 they got drawn into it and I covered 351 00:17:00,299 --> 00:16:54,639 that pretty much from the beginning and 352 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:00,309 then left about the time since Sydney 353 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,290 schanberg came in and covered the 354 00:17:06,929 --> 00:17:04,480 arrival of the Khmer Rouge which became 355 00:17:09,659 --> 00:17:06,939 of course his wonderful movie The 356 00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:09,669 Killing Fields Wow let's see I've just 357 00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:10,990 wonder if we should talk a little bit 358 00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:13,569 more about your career in general what 359 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:16,600 do you think well that's fine I think 360 00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,329 it's very important for you know 361 00:17:24,899 --> 00:17:21,520 listeners to know that you know I come 362 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:24,909 to this not as a proponent or an 363 00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:27,370 advocate at least I didn't start off 364 00:17:30,810 --> 00:17:28,960 that way I don't think I've become an 365 00:17:33,810 --> 00:17:30,820 advocate I still consider myself a 366 00:17:36,210 --> 00:17:33,820 reporter and I think that I hope that 367 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:36,220 that's the strength of my reporting that 368 00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:40,809 I come to it as a reporter and the one 369 00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:45,039 thing you know I really stuck in my 370 00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:46,750 investigative reporting over the years 371 00:17:52,590 --> 00:17:49,260 I've been involved in a lot of political 372 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:52,600 expose for the New York Times my 373 00:17:59,850 --> 00:17:57,010 training is to stick to the facts and I 374 00:18:04,409 --> 00:17:59,860 think I I hope that I what I brought to 375 00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:04,419 this story is a adherence to to the 376 00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:08,740 facts a an openness to shakir things and 377 00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:11,080 to understand things but also in innate 378 00:18:15,090 --> 00:18:12,549 skepticism I don't believe anything 379 00:18:17,399 --> 00:18:15,100 anyone tells me on the face of it and 380 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:17,409 that everything has to be tested right I 381 00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:19,870 think what is lacking is the one word 382 00:18:24,539 --> 00:18:22,000 you just mentioned out there is the 383 00:18:26,639 --> 00:18:24,549 openness to at least investigate and 384 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:26,649 it's like a breath of fresh air to have 385 00:18:31,169 --> 00:18:29,020 someone like you actually investigate 386 00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:31,179 something like this well you know I sort 387 00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:34,960 of took my cues from from John Mack who 388 00:18:39,330 --> 00:18:37,240 also described a great length in his 389 00:18:42,299 --> 00:18:39,340 books and all his interviews how he came 390 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:42,309 to it as a skeptic it's an interesting 391 00:18:47,879 --> 00:18:45,940 story he was brought up as a scientist 392 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:47,889 his whole family had been eminent 393 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:51,970 physicians at Harvard his training was 394 00:18:57,500 --> 00:18:55,330 science he was a he had to be a medical 395 00:19:00,570 --> 00:18:57,510 doctor before he could be a psychiatrist 396 00:19:03,419 --> 00:19:00,580 so he trained the I have a photo of him 397 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:03,429 conducting an autopsy oh yeah yeah he 398 00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:06,250 was a man of science and he was an 399 00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:08,260 activist a social activist he believed 400 00:19:12,990 --> 00:19:10,960 in you know ending nuclear weapons and 401 00:19:18,690 --> 00:19:13,000 but so politically he was certainly on 402 00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:18,700 the left but he was a strictly man of 403 00:19:26,159 --> 00:19:23,830 science and when he eventually started 404 00:19:28,980 --> 00:19:26,169 learning about these unusual this 405 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:28,990 anomalous world he had taken breath 406 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:32,470 worth training with stanislav grof and 407 00:19:37,649 --> 00:19:35,740 his wife and he had learned well I mean 408 00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:37,659 psychiatrist steel and hypnosis in 409 00:19:44,669 --> 00:19:41,470 alternate states all the time he was 410 00:19:48,060 --> 00:19:44,679 always aware that that there were some 411 00:19:52,260 --> 00:19:48,070 hidden corners of the human mind which 412 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:52,270 every psychiatrist knows but he began 413 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:54,460 experimenting himself he tried some 414 00:19:58,510 --> 00:19:55,970 psychotropic drugs 415 00:20:00,550 --> 00:19:58,520 all those energetic drugs and he was 416 00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:00,560 surprised that the things they brought 417 00:20:09,910 --> 00:20:05,600 out in him he had had a very traumatic 418 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:09,920 youth his mother died when he was seven 419 00:20:14,590 --> 00:20:13,310 months old his father remarried but he 420 00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:14,600 always missed his mother 421 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:18,460 so these issues came out when he was 422 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:20,510 experimenting with drugs so he knew that 423 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:22,250 there were some hidden corners of the 424 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:25,250 human mind but nothing prepared him for 425 00:20:30,610 --> 00:20:27,530 the letters that but Hopkins showed him 426 00:20:31,930 --> 00:20:30,620 when when Mac met Budd Hopkins and 427 00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:31,940 Hopkins said he'd been getting these 428 00:20:35,860 --> 00:20:33,860 letters from people who had been 429 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:35,870 abducted or said they'd been abducted 430 00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:38,210 and Mac looked at them and was trying to 431 00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:40,190 figure out what was going on he didn't 432 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:41,960 believe it either do you know how they 433 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:44,930 first met yeah Mac had been dabbling in 434 00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:46,850 some of these interesting groups like 435 00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:49,070 esthe on the west coast you know it was 436 00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:52,880 an era of great experimentation sexual 437 00:20:58,270 --> 00:20:53,960 experimentation 438 00:21:02,140 --> 00:20:58,280 these things were going on in the 50s 439 00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,150 and 60s great opening up and he was an 440 00:21:08,110 --> 00:21:04,400 eager participant and there was a woman 441 00:21:11,170 --> 00:21:08,120 in one of these groups in on the coast 442 00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:11,180 in California who knew lied 443 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:14,720 but what Hopkins was a very accomplished 444 00:21:20,650 --> 00:21:18,290 artist who had himself seen a UFO on 445 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:20,660 Cape Cod in the 60s and then written 446 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:23,690 about it and this woman became a kind of 447 00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:27,170 a bridge between Mac and and Budd 448 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:30,140 Hopkins she told Mac she'd met Mac I 449 00:21:33,490 --> 00:21:31,610 guess on the coast and said there's this 450 00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:33,500 guy but Hopkins who's really interesting 451 00:21:38,650 --> 00:21:36,950 you should meet him so Mac said he 452 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:38,660 always remembered the date it was you 453 00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:42,710 know in 1980 I believe and he went to 454 00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,560 visit but and Budd showed him these 455 00:21:50,380 --> 00:21:47,360 letters so that's how it came about I 456 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:50,390 see in the article you wrote you talked 457 00:21:56,410 --> 00:21:52,610 briefly about the Brooklyn Bridge UFO 458 00:21:57,940 --> 00:21:56,420 abduction do you know more details about 459 00:22:00,700 --> 00:21:57,950 that I've heard about that but I've 460 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:00,710 never really well I do it's really one 461 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:03,980 of the most sensational that's certainly 462 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:06,740 a fair word to use cases that have ever 463 00:22:12,370 --> 00:22:09,410 come up I mean of course the hills store 464 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:12,380 is very sensational they were all 465 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:14,570 sensational there's not a there's not an 466 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:18,050 abduction story that's not but the Linda 467 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:19,850 Napolitan I call her by her real name 468 00:22:25,390 --> 00:22:23,330 which she gave me permission to do but 469 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:25,400 Hopkins gave her pseudonym in his book 470 00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:27,590 but I'll give you the story very quickly 471 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:30,260 a major world figure this is in Budd 472 00:22:35,050 --> 00:22:32,570 Hopkins telling of the story a major 473 00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:35,060 world leader was on his way downtown to 474 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:38,300 a meeting with two bodyguards his car 475 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:41,210 suddenly came to a stop under the FDR 476 00:22:45,610 --> 00:22:43,390 drive of the east side of Manhattan and 477 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:45,620 they didn't know what was wrong with the 478 00:22:50,770 --> 00:22:47,810 car and they stopped and got out and 479 00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:50,780 we're looking around and again this is 480 00:22:55,570 --> 00:22:53,120 according to the story told in Budd 481 00:22:58,690 --> 00:22:55,580 Hopkins book and the story that Linda 482 00:23:02,470 --> 00:22:58,700 later told me the world leader and two 483 00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:02,480 bodyguards saw a spacecraft hovering 484 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:04,190 over a building near the Brooklyn Bridge 485 00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:07,550 to their amazement they saw a figure 486 00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:11,000 come out of the window levitate out of 487 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:14,720 the window followed by three and to join 488 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:16,790 three small beings who had come out of 489 00:23:21,610 --> 00:23:18,920 the spacecraft they all floated toward 490 00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:21,620 the spacecraft the spacecraft then shot 491 00:23:25,690 --> 00:23:23,630 over the East River over the Brooklyn 492 00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:25,700 Bridge and plunged into the water that 493 00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:29,990 was the story they were apparently there 494 00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:31,340 were some witnesses on the Brooklyn 495 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:33,020 Bridge drivers whose caused it also 496 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:35,330 stalled there were witnesses at the New 497 00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:39,050 York Post printing plant anyway and in 498 00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:41,360 his book witnessed but Hopkins tells 499 00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:44,360 this story and later when I met Linda 500 00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:47,390 the woman who was supposedly and 501 00:23:52,990 --> 00:23:50,830 levitated out of her window she 502 00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:53,000 confirmed the story to me at least in 503 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:54,470 her experience this is what she 504 00:23:58,930 --> 00:23:57,290 remembered you often under hypnosis it's 505 00:24:02,110 --> 00:23:58,940 very hard to recover these memories 506 00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:02,120 because they're very clouded 507 00:24:06,850 --> 00:24:04,580 anyway I'd you know there was no way in 508 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:06,860 in the context of this article or even 509 00:24:12,220 --> 00:24:09,970 in a book of my own that I could 510 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:12,230 completely check out this story it's 511 00:24:16,030 --> 00:24:13,850 become kind of controversial because 512 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:16,040 different people have claimed it was a 513 00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:22,130 hoax and it's the it's really spurred a 514 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:23,360 very lively debate 515 00:24:31,570 --> 00:24:27,470 online but at least I was able to talk 516 00:24:33,790 --> 00:24:31,580 to Linda and the world figure who Budd 517 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:33,800 Hopkins never identifies in his book but 518 00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:36,140 is identified in other articles online 519 00:24:41,470 --> 00:24:38,960 and supposedly the former Secretary 520 00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:41,480 General of the United Nations Javier 521 00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:43,580 Perez de Cuellar who was on his way to a 522 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:47,420 meeting I did get the chance through a 523 00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:49,910 canoes colleague to get some questions 524 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:52,760 to de Cuellar who's now retired in in 525 00:24:58,990 --> 00:24:56,570 Peru and he was asked about this whole 526 00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:59,000 episode and his responses were quite 527 00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:01,520 enigmatic he said he didn't really 528 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:03,620 remember he didn't deny it but he said 529 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:05,450 he has no interest in these types of 530 00:25:13,810 --> 00:25:09,770 stories but it was not exactly a flat 531 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:13,820 denial and it's a very peculiar story I 532 00:25:20,470 --> 00:25:17,090 had to say the least at least I was able 533 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:20,480 to track down some of the figures as 534 00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:24,290 like Linda for example and Leslie came 535 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:27,260 who was close to but Hopkins has a lot 536 00:25:32,830 --> 00:25:30,650 of his original research and I was able 537 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:32,840 to confirm you know some of the outlines 538 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:35,750 of the story so again that's the 539 00:25:41,530 --> 00:25:37,850 so-called Brooklyn Bridge abduction and 540 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:41,540 the story goes on that Linda was taken 541 00:25:47,860 --> 00:25:45,730 to a strange place but some Beach and 542 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:47,870 one of the people she was abducted with 543 00:25:52,330 --> 00:25:50,090 came back with some of the sand but it 544 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:52,340 had been tested and as usual in these 545 00:25:59,410 --> 00:25:55,330 stories it's inconclusive there's never 546 00:26:02,550 --> 00:25:59,420 enough physical proof to be persuasive 547 00:26:05,650 --> 00:26:02,560 that's one of the mysteries of the whole 548 00:26:08,860 --> 00:26:05,660 you know UFO and alien abduction 549 00:26:11,230 --> 00:26:08,870 phenomena no one has ever been able to 550 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:11,240 come back with incontrovertible 551 00:26:15,310 --> 00:26:12,850 scientific proof there's always 552 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:15,320 tantalizing things as little cuts that 553 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:18,050 heal quickly there's a witness sightings 554 00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:21,530 that coincide with abductions you know 555 00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:24,950 there's a pattern of evidence of 556 00:26:29,950 --> 00:26:27,940 fragmentary evidence that falls short of 557 00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:29,960 incontrovertible proof that's the way it 558 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:32,030 seems like it's always been since you've 559 00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:34,850 written this article have you considered 560 00:26:41,030 --> 00:26:36,750 what you would do if someone contacted 561 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:41,040 you and started relaying their abduction 562 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:42,450 experience to you 563 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:45,510 where you would go with that well you 564 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:47,670 know some people have actually contacted 565 00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,330 me 566 00:26:51,980 --> 00:26:50,400 they've also contacted you know they 567 00:26:54,860 --> 00:26:51,990 told me they've been in touch with other 568 00:26:57,950 --> 00:26:54,870 you know groups and they had Oh had 569 00:27:00,410 --> 00:26:57,960 talked to Mack at the time so I would 570 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:00,420 definitely talk to them I frankly I have 571 00:27:04,910 --> 00:27:02,850 interviewed a few of them for what I 572 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:04,920 hope will be my book so I've heard these 573 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:07,470 stories firsthand myself I've you know 574 00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:10,170 tested them check them out I've talked 575 00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:11,760 to other people for example this young 576 00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:13,950 woman in Massachusetts who told me all 577 00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:17,430 kinds of stories and she told me about 578 00:27:21,380 --> 00:27:19,620 an episode where she she felt she was 579 00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:21,390 abducted from her bedroom and I talked 580 00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:24,720 to her you know to check it to verify it 581 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:27,630 I talked to her husband they've since 582 00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:29,490 separated but he they're in good terms 583 00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:32,700 and he was a what struck me particularly 584 00:27:36,830 --> 00:27:34,200 is he's a police officer 585 00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:36,840 mm-hmm was able to confirm some of the 586 00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,240 details he was as is very common as you 587 00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:41,760 know he was kind of paralyzed he 588 00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:44,220 couldn't move but he saw the flashing 589 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:46,740 red light he felt a presence in the room 590 00:27:54,410 --> 00:27:51,690 he felt her struggling when she was you 591 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:54,420 know abducted so here's a police officer 592 00:27:58,520 --> 00:27:56,490 you know with some degree of credibility 593 00:28:01,340 --> 00:27:58,530 still working as a law enforcement 594 00:28:03,620 --> 00:28:01,350 officer who confirms some of the 595 00:28:04,970 --> 00:28:03,630 outlines of the story so I have talked 596 00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:04,980 to quite a few of these people and 597 00:28:10,430 --> 00:28:07,380 wherever possible you tried to get 598 00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:10,440 outside confirmation it's very difficult 599 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:13,230 as you know and again it always falls 600 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:15,870 short you know full of scientific proof 601 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:19,050 but I'm happy to you know hear these 602 00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:21,810 stories and meet with people and just 603 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:23,760 listen to them would you attend any 604 00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:25,320 other like four instances in 605 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:27,360 experiencers conference I'm right in my 606 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:29,010 neighborhood up in Portland Maine this 607 00:28:33,740 --> 00:28:30,290 September would you ever consider 608 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:33,750 attending one of those I know there are 609 00:28:37,460 --> 00:28:35,370 a lot of these conferences there's the 610 00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:37,470 MUFON conference there you know every 611 00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:40,920 year there are a lot of groups meeting 612 00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:44,190 and the hard part is you know to keep up 613 00:28:50,570 --> 00:28:47,070 with all of it and as you know there's 614 00:28:53,330 --> 00:28:50,580 also it is a kind of a mixed bag 615 00:28:55,790 --> 00:28:53,340 I mean there's some some more credible 616 00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:55,800 than others and one I think has to be 617 00:29:02,420 --> 00:28:58,890 careful to you know focus for I have to 618 00:29:07,010 --> 00:29:02,430 be careful folks my effort on the more 619 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:07,020 reliable rewarding of the conferences or 620 00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:09,170 so because there's so many of them but 621 00:29:17,470 --> 00:29:13,230 for example I talked in my article about 622 00:29:20,150 --> 00:29:17,480 the famous abduction conference at MIT 623 00:29:22,670 --> 00:29:20,160 that took place in the 90s it was 624 00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:22,680 extraordinary put on by David Jacobs and 625 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:26,100 David Pritchard and MIT was the shall we 626 00:29:33,290 --> 00:29:30,570 say reluctant host it opened its doors 627 00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:33,300 to this very prestigious high-level 628 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:34,860 conference where a lot of papers were 629 00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:37,170 presented and the issue was looked at 630 00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:41,160 from various perspectives so that became 631 00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:43,460 its own book by cqb Brian 632 00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:46,200 the great writer who wrote friendly-fire 633 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:49,020 he wrote a book Close Encounters of the 634 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:51,930 Fourth Kind just about that conference I 635 00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:55,110 wish I had attended that they are in 636 00:30:00,080 --> 00:29:56,430 said Harvard at the Harvard Divinity 637 00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:00,090 School not open to outsiders but a 638 00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:02,270 conference of a lot of professionals 639 00:30:08,780 --> 00:30:06,180 including Mac to look at this problem an 640 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:08,790 issue and see what they could make of it 641 00:30:13,580 --> 00:30:12,030 so yes there are conferences I think 642 00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:13,590 that are very worth attending you 643 00:30:18,590 --> 00:30:16,110 mentioned briefly a book do you have 644 00:30:20,060 --> 00:30:18,600 something you have something in mind you 645 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:20,070 know I've been trying for the longest 646 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:24,690 time to to sell a book on John Mac it 647 00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:27,990 has not been easy because of the the 648 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:30,440 mindset that we were talking about 649 00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:35,340 there's a lot of hostility I would say 650 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:37,230 more than skepticism hostility in the 651 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:39,390 publishing community even though books 652 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:42,570 keep coming out about you know UFOs and 653 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:46,650 abduction and movies for sure the 654 00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:51,410 mainstream publishing community is quite 655 00:30:58,700 --> 00:30:55,380 skeptical or hostile and Mac was not 656 00:31:01,640 --> 00:30:58,710 seen as enough of a figure to anchor a 657 00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:01,650 book so I've had a lot of difficulty 658 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:03,900 selling it as an idea 659 00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:06,090 I think in the end I'll prevail I have 660 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:08,460 some interest now I think I know where 661 00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:10,770 I'm going on it and I think the Vanity 662 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:13,380 Fair article really helped show the the 663 00:31:18,860 --> 00:31:16,950 interest but it has not been easy I bet 664 00:31:20,990 --> 00:31:18,870 we're getting near the end of the show 665 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:21,000 here have you had any of these type of 666 00:31:27,410 --> 00:31:23,370 experiences or your family that you're 667 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:27,420 aware of no I really searched my memory 668 00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:29,610 because a lot of these experiences are 669 00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:31,830 deeply buried as you know and often come 670 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:33,870 out only in connection with something 671 00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:37,370 else but I can't say I've ever I have 672 00:31:44,570 --> 00:31:40,559 I've never seen a UFO that I can 673 00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:44,580 remember and and I'm glad I have not had 674 00:31:50,419 --> 00:31:46,230 these troubling experiences because I 675 00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:50,429 know how people suffer I as you know 676 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:52,950 they tend to occur in family so if your 677 00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,830 grandparents and parents have had 678 00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:57,120 abduction type experiences you're more 679 00:32:00,890 --> 00:31:58,740 likely to and that has not been a 680 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:00,900 pattern my family it tends to happen 681 00:32:07,490 --> 00:32:04,650 early in life not late in life so it's 682 00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:07,500 as if these beings whatever they are are 683 00:32:12,620 --> 00:32:10,140 following people from generations which 684 00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:12,630 might be some kind of study but it does 685 00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:14,340 seem to be that seems to be the pattern 686 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:18,179 so in my case no and as I say from what 687 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:19,970 I've seen about the deeply traumatic 688 00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:26,370 effects I can't say I'm sorry I have not 689 00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:28,950 have you know been singled out or had 690 00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:30,750 these experiences because they're very 691 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:32,580 very difficult I've been rereading 692 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:35,130 Whitley streamer's book and how he was 693 00:32:43,340 --> 00:32:39,360 tortured by by his experiences they're 694 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:43,350 very trouble you know the outs the 695 00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:44,990 skeptics are always trying to make a 696 00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:49,200 link between these experiences and 697 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:52,350 mental illness is to the extent these 698 00:32:56,419 --> 00:32:53,970 people are mentally disturbed 699 00:32:58,150 --> 00:32:56,429 it's what's happened to them as a result 700 00:33:01,460 --> 00:32:58,160 of their experiences they're not 701 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:01,470 mentally disturbed and conjuring up 702 00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:03,090 these experiences they're perfectly 703 00:33:07,910 --> 00:33:05,670 normal people until they encounter these 704 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:07,920 inexplicable events and and they're 705 00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:12,890 thrown off off-center as you would Mack 706 00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:15,870 found that many people hoped to be told 707 00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:17,620 that they were insane 708 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:19,630 they could deal with what had happened 709 00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:22,450 to them so when he gave them the bad 710 00:33:27,299 --> 00:33:25,179 news that they were not crazy that as 711 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:27,309 other people have had these same 712 00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:29,350 experiences and there were witnesses and 713 00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:30,880 something that something had happened to 714 00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:33,190 them in some dimension they were even 715 00:33:37,980 --> 00:33:35,289 more troubled because they they lacked 716 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:37,990 any system for processing that 717 00:33:42,419 --> 00:33:40,150 information well it sure is a mysterious 718 00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:42,429 phenomenon it is and that's the thing 719 00:33:46,019 --> 00:33:44,350 you know I think it'll remain mysterious 720 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:46,029 for a long time to come I'm very 721 00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:48,730 pessimistic that we're close to a 722 00:33:53,159 --> 00:33:51,190 solution I think it's just something 723 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:53,169 we're gonna have to keep studying that's 724 00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:53,590 right 725 00:33:58,380 --> 00:33:55,960 Ralph you've been amazing so glad that 726 00:34:00,930 --> 00:33:58,390 you've written this article and I hope 727 00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,940 to see your name in print a number of 728 00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,799 times in the future about this well 729 00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:04,240 thank you so much for having me it's a 730 00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:04,840 great pleasure 731 00:34:13,710 --> 00:34:07,919 yes all right that was back on May of 732 00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:13,720 2013 and this is July 29th 2019 and yes 733 00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:16,000 we did see his name in print again and 734 00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:18,460 that was the New York Times article of 735 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:21,550 course with Leslie came back in December 736 00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:25,570 of 2017 so we're going to be back next 737 00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:26,950 week with a great guest 738 00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:29,790 Rizwan Burk we're gonna be talking about 739 00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:33,280 entrepreneurialship and Technology UFOs 740 00:34:36,930 --> 00:34:35,470 and a lot more thanks for listening